Some things I want to know about

Post by **phuk72** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:02 pm

funnymachine wrote:
Quan-Time wrote:oh, and just quickly while i think of it, you can make a R1 sound like a ducati, its NOT hard.. and with a stock exhaust / induction aswell
The Ducati twins have an L twin firing pattern with both pistons on the same kingpin so what happens is the engine fires, then it fires again after 270 degress then it waits for 450 degrees then it fires again.

The TRX850 is a parallel twin with a 270 degree crank so though it is a parallel twin it fires unevenly and just happens to have the exact same firing pattern as a Ducati (I am sure you already know all this).

But how would you make an R1 sound like this?

Cheers

Mark

Big bang principle!

funnymachine · Post by **funnymachine** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:44 pm

twolfe wrote:ECU's on bikes ain't the same. They can't compensate for major changes without being remapped (manually).

Okay thanks, that's a shame - I am sure I read somewhere that by taking the air box off a Z1300 Kawasaki (the late eighties one) you got instant extra BHP because the fuel re-mapped to compensate so I assumed that things had moved on.

Someone also commented somewhere that the TDM compensated for mountain air?

Perhaps it was just wishful thinking

Oh well...

But then given that I just bought a TRX what does it matter

I'll just do it the old fashioned way.

And???

If the TRX is more powerful than a TDM900 where do I find that info?

How many horses does my bike have?

Thanks

Mark

funnymachine · Post by **funnymachine** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:51 pm

phuk72 wrote:Big bang principle!

Okay here's the thing.

1. I am mildly autistic (which means I can take things very literally)

2. I am a sound engineer (which means I analyse sound for a living)

And you guys are trying to convince me that you can make an R1 sound like a Ducati???!!!???

Not even in my imagination you can't...

I wish I could be the guy on a Puch moped who is imagining he is on a Harley but it doesn't work for me...

An R1 sounds gay!

Mark

youngy · Post by **youngy** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:56 pm

funnymachine wrote:
If the TRX is more powerful than a TDM900 where do I find that info?

How many horses does my bike have?

Thanks

Mark

Try the MCN website. They list specs for a whole host of bikes.

79 bone stock allegedly.

Quan-Time · Post by **Quan-Time** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:42 am

88hp from a TRX is fairly common.. So NOS on that should be fun if thats what your after.

Id suggest if you just want thrills, huge exhaust, good air filter, FCR41 carbies, and your all set. You could throw in a kent profile cam aswell to help a bit.. That should set you over the 90hp mark i would suspect. So NOS on that will be fun

Look at the firing order on a R1. its an inline 4 (IL4)
Now look at the way the pistons move up and down.

i THINK the firing order is something like 1-3-4-2. If you get an after market computer (say a PC3) and get a new cam, you can make the 4 act like a 2. By changing the firing order and opening the valves on a completely different cycle.
Have 2 cyl's fire together, and then have the other 2 fire together.
You can buy a kit off the shelf here in AUS for it.. Its $2500 last i heard. You get 2 new cams (with a nice bit of extra power) and a new ECU.
plug them in and your set. Put a nice exhaust on and voila.. instant twin sound, and a nice bit of extra torque aswell.

Many track bikes in the ASBK (australian super bike) league do it.

Ive never ridden one, so im not sure of the actual power difference, i suspect the HP would be same, you might loose say... 500rpm peak power, but you would gain a whole lot of torque which would be nice for the track / kick in the pants.

funnymachine · Post by **funnymachine** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:50 am

Quan-Time wrote:Look at the firing order on a R1. its an inline 4 (IL4)
Now look at the way the pistons move up and down.

i THINK the firing order is something like 1-3-4-2. If you get an after market computer (say a PC3) and get a new cam, you can make the 4 act like a 2. By changing the firing order and opening the valves on a completely different cycle.
Have 2 cyl's fire together, and then have the other 2 fire together.
You can buy a kit off the shelf here in AUS for it.. Its $2500 last i heard. You get 2 new cams (with a nice bit of extra power) and a new ECU.
plug them in and your set. Put a nice exhaust on and voila.. instant twin sound, and a nice bit of extra torque aswell.

An R1 probably fires every 180 degrees (evenly spaced beats over a 720 degree 4 stroke cycle) What you suggest would surely sound like a parallel twin and the TRX doesn't sound like that, it sounds like a V twin.

Unless they are splitting the R1 crank and cam as well and rotating it to get the 270 degree firing order.

Check this site out:

http://www.650motorcycles.com/XS277kit.html

There is a chap who has done this on an XS650. Have a look at the crank in the photo - TRX crank looks the same with this weird offset.

The reason I bought the TRX in the first place is because of the 270 degree firing pattern. I particularly like the sound of L-twins but have a problem with my wrists and the L twin engine in the Ducati with the forward facing cylinder making the bike just a bit too long.

I found out that TRX = L twin timing in parallel engine - perfect!!!

I thought about Buells for a while and test rode a couple - sound like tractors on tick over and sustain high revs for any length of time and you end up with a pool of oil under the bike when you stop. As in, when I took it back to the shop after hammering it round London and the surrounding sexes it had boiling oil weeping from pretty much every gasket face.

I also thought the sound of boiling petrol in the frame was pretty disconcerting, as was the fact that it was like sitting astride a toaster - okay it was a hot day and we don't get too many of them in the UK but I think I have made a good choice with the TRX.

It's not perfect, but it's perfect for me.

Cheers

Mark

Now where did I put that NOS kit...

Biffidus · Post by **Biffidus** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:42 am

You could make an R1 sound like a duc by being sneaky with the exhausts. Route the first two cylinders to fire through a race pipe on one side and the other two through a much quieter on the other

It would probably run pretty bad with the heavier restriction on two cylinders but it would sound more like a 270 deg twin

They have played around with "Big Bang" style firing orders on the i4 superbikes but without changing the crankshaft the best you can hope for is a TDM-style 180-deg twin rather than TRX-style 270-deg twin.

They had problems with other components when they tried this as well... for example, standard cams chains on some bikes weren't strong enough to open two exhaust valves at once!

funnymachine · Post by **funnymachine** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:59 am

Biffidus wrote:You could make an R1 sound like a duc by being sneaky with the exhausts. Route the first two cylinders to fire through a race pipe on one side and the other two through a much quieter on the other

That's a bit like saying you can make reggae sound like drum and bass if you give the drummer loads of speed and get him to sit in the audience while you leave the rest of the band on stage.

Whatever you do with an R1 the largest interval between a piston is 180 degrees not 270 like on the TRX.

As a musician this equates roughly to the difference between common time and swing beat. The R1 is banging out four on the floor while the TRX is playing a more sophisticated shuffle.

The most interesting part of course is that TREX used this beat on a lot of their songs.

And I do love to boogie

Best

Mark

funnymachine · Post by **funnymachine** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:17 am

I wonder if there is a clue in the fact that groups studying the big bang from a theoretical standpoint, had predicted purely from the big bang theory that the universe should by now have cooled to just a few degrees above absolute zero. 3 Kelvin degrees above absolute zero is about 270 degrees below zero centigrade!

So maybe the secret of the big bang R1 is that it has a 270 degree crank???!!!???

Greg · Post by **Greg** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:02 am

I used to own a Honda VF750FD - yes, the one with the chocolate camshaft..! Anyway, when my cam-followers eventually went, I got quite serious about big-banging that one as both pairs of cylinders were 360s. There was firm in Bishops Stortford called Joy Engineering who could have halved and rotated my cams to suit - it would have been a relatively simple conversion as it only had one ignition sender per bank of cylinders with a wasted spark on the exhaust stroke. It would have been an awesome conversion

Then I ran out of money...

and the bike sat at the back of my house til I sold it to Henry in Manchester on Ebay

G

Biffidus · Post by **Biffidus** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:18 am

funnymachine wrote:Whatever you do with an R1 the largest interval between a piston is 180 degrees not 270 like on the TRX.

true... you wont get exactly 270, the best you can hope for is to disrupt the even 1-2-3-4 firing of the cylinders.

ps. analogies make the raptor jesus cry

Quan-Time · Post by **Quan-Time** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:19 am

the new R1s are 90deg crank order, thus you make them sound the same.
As phuk said, "big bang" theory. Altho ducati runs a screamer config for its V4.. the kwaka motoGP runs a big bang config and IL4. Sounds sweet.. Pitty they are lacking a bit.. But they still are faster in a straight line than the yammy M1..

Also note that suzuki has been making pieced cranks for years. GSX-1100EF anyone ?

they actually ran needle roller bearings on the rod big end. Subsequently was a pig to rebuild as the rod was actually one piece not 2 with bolts.

but MAN could that engine rev if you tuned it properly !