JE878 gone bad

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misterdimwiddy
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by misterdimwiddy » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:52 pm

Not so sure that we are talking about extending the length of the torque wrench moment arm here?

You can use universal sockets with torque wrenches if you know the offset angle. You must set your torque wrench to a greater torque if the plane of rotation of the torque wrench head (the wrench remaining perpendicular to the extension bar) is not parallel to the bolt head plane of rotation. If you have any offset angle the torque applied to the fastener will be less than the torque wrench setting so you must adjust for this.

I think the equation is;

TA = T/cos^

where TA is the applied torque (or torque wrench setting)
T is the torque applied to the fastener
^ is the offset angle.

So if your wrench is parallel to the fastener ^ would be zero and if the fastener spec is 48Nm torque then TA = 48Nm/cos(0) or 100 Nm which is the same as your torque wrench if you are using a regular socket.
If however, you use a 'wobble' extension and the offset angle is 16deg (max possible offset with a 'wobble' extension) then

TA = 48 Nm/cos(16)
=49.93Nm (giving an applied torque of 46.14Nm with an indicated 48Nm at 16deg offset)

at 10deg

TA = 48 Nm/cos(10)
=48.74Nm (giving an applied torque of 47.27Nm with an indicated 48Nm at 10deg offset)


.................an error of -3.8% in applied torque at 16deg offset which is probably less than the calibration error for many torque wrenches..............or the error introduced if you failed to grease the bolts and nuts before assembly.

We will see when my motor throws a rod next summer :)

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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:10 am

the crows foot adaptor works on a perpendicular and is a constant eliminating the margin of error and working the angle out which may be a challenge if you can't access the nut to get your 0 reference to start. This only creates another margin of error in itself.
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Rod.s
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Rod.s » Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:04 am

misterdimwiddy wrote: .................an error of -3.8% in applied torque at 16deg offset which is probably less than the calibration error for many torque wrenches..............or the error introduced if you failed to grease the bolts and nuts before assembly.

We will see when my motor throws a rod next summer :)
The margin of error is "+-1" for a calibrated torque wrench (ISO 6789:2003 should be a good place to start) why would you oil or grease a nut that requires a specific torque? I really hope that you don't throw a rod next summer :shock:
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dandywarhol
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by dandywarhol » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:12 am

I have seen manufacturers data state that a fastener needs to be oiled before torquing and the torque figure reflects that Rod.
Haven't checked what Yamaha say for the trx big end nuts
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white

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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Tarwetijger » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:31 am

dandywarhol wrote:I have seen manufacturers data state that a fastener needs to be oiled before torquing and the torque figure reflects that Rod.
Haven't checked what Yamaha say for the trx big end nuts
Haynes says:
"Apply molubdenum disulphide grease to the bolt shanks and threads and to the seats of the nuts."

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Rod.s
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Rod.s » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:50 am

Tarwetijger wrote:
dandywarhol wrote:I have seen manufacturers data state that a fastener needs to be oiled before torquing and the torque figure reflects that Rod.
Haven't checked what Yamaha say for the trx big end nuts
Haynes says:
"Apply molubdenum disulphide grease to the bolt shanks "and threads and to the seats of the nuts"."
You trust a Haynes manual :shock: :shock:
Last edited by Rod.s on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Rod.s » Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:03 pm

dandywarhol wrote:I have seen manufacturers data state that a fastener needs to be oiled before torquing and the torque figure reflects that Rod.
Haven't checked what Yamaha say for the trx big end nuts
It's quite unusual for a touqued nut to be installed wet, as the oil or grease can cause a hydraulic lock and give a false reading, resulting in the nut coming lose once working. I'd be interested to read the Yamaha manual that recommends this practise :D

Now saying this, i have seen the shank of bolts installed wet, but never the thread, nut or mating surfaces :wink:
Last edited by Rod.s on Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by sadmansteve » Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:23 pm

I have a genuine Yamaha Service information manual for the TRX850.
The manual shows a symbol of an oil can with an "M" on it against the torque value of 48 NM for the connecting rod nuts.
In the front of the manual there is a section "illustrated symbols", the oil can with the "M" references Apply molybdenum disulfide oil.

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Rod.s
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Rod.s » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:16 pm

sadmansteve wrote:I have a genuine Yamaha Service information manual for the TRX850.
The manual shows a symbol of an oil can with an "M" on it against the torque value of 48 NM for the connecting rod nuts.
In the front of the manual there is a section "illustrated symbols", the oil can with the "M" references Apply molybdenum disulfide oil.
Sadman, I found the page you are talking about, the grease (not oil) they are using is a high pressure, low friction grease with a large particle size. It is being called for in this application to stop galling (or binding) of the nut to con rod surface, this mineral sulphide grease is perfect in this application as it allows the two surfaces to slide reducing any chance of binding and false torque reading. This Manual also states that "unless otherwise specified, torque specification call for clean dry threads" :D
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dandywarhol
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by dandywarhol » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:12 pm

Surely a low friction grease will allow the nut to turn a greater angle (therefore tighter) than being torqued dry when friction between the nut and big end cap will set the torque wrench off earlier?

So, if the Manufacturer says torque it wet then do it.
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white

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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by speedy » Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:23 pm

Both Carrillo and Thunder Engineering (makers of Lightning rods) say bolts should be lubricated under heads as well as threads
Carrillo supply a lubricant or suggest moly paste mixed engine oil
Thunder recommend engine oil

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Rod.s
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Rod.s » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:57 am

dandywarhol wrote:Surely a low friction grease will allow the nut to turn a greater angle (therefore tighter) than being torqued dry when friction between the nut and big end cap will set the torque wrench off earlier?

So, if the Manufacturer says torque it wet then do it.
All to true :D

The friction caused by binding of the nut to con-rod surface can be hight, this alone will give a false torque reading. The idea of using a Moly sulphide grease to stop this binding is the lessor of two evils, the risk of hydraulic lock with a high particle grease is dramatically reduced.

The friction or lack there of, has been considered by the engineer when calculating the torque value, as long as we follow their instructions then all should be good. Torque only measures the amount of friction to be overcome to turn the nut, it does and not messure clamp load.

As i said earlier the use of a lubricant on a torqued nut is unusual and generally speaking is not recommended, these con-rod bolts are a great example of a lubricated torqued nut.

edit….just remember that we are stretching the bolt (it's a big spring) by applying a given torque to the nut, it's the elasticity of that bolt to stretch under stress (heat pressure) and return to its given size that is critical. We don't wand the bolt to yield and deform, although on high stress engines (drag, race) this is common and the rod bolts are replaced at regular intervals.

Instead of using a torque wrench, try using the more accurate and better "Torque And Angle Method"…… :D have some fun with that.
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dandywarhol
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by dandywarhol » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:31 am

Yep, stretch bolts been around on auto engines for a long time.
When used for head bolts it eliminates re torquing after 1000 miles running. Just wondering, are Yamaha head bolts stretch? Dont remember my TDM head being tightened down at its first service :?
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white

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Rod.s
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Re: JE878 gone bad

Post by Rod.s » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:47 am

dandywarhol wrote:Yep, stretch bolts been around on auto engines for a long time.
When used for head bolts it eliminates re torquing after 1000 miles running. Just wondering, are Yamaha head bolts stretch? Dont remember my TDM head being tightened down at its first service :?
Re-torqueing of the head bolts is usually to account for the head gasket settling, modern head gaskets don't require re-torqueing. :D
If it's not made in China, it's a fake!

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