Some things I want to know about

[funnymachine]

Some things I want to know about...

Is a TDM900 engine the same physical size as a TRX850 engine with the same mounting points etc?

The TDM900 oil tank is different and looks like it could be removed so I could put oil in swing arm whatever - can I remove the oil tank from the TRX850 engine or is it part of the engine casing?

So, are the engines interchangeable?

Thanks

Mark

[youngy]

no - mounts are different. 900 is injected. dunno if carbs will go on the inlets. otherwise you need injectors, pump, ecu, loom etc

oil tank can be removed - it unbolts, but you need to blank it off and make sure the new oil reservoir is above the pumps otherwise there will be no suction head and the pumps will not pump. swingarm has various holes in it that would prevent it from being oiltight.

anything is possible but why would you want to when the TRX makes more power than the 900 anyway?

[funnymachine]

why would you want to when the TRX makes more power than the 900 anyway?

because the TDM is fuel injected with an ECU and I am lazy - it would correct itself if I squirted nitrous into the airbox and I wouldn't have to run a wet system, do plug chops to tune it etc

how much less power?

where can I read up on it so I don't ask all these silly questions

I just got this thing (TRX850) and I had a Monster before it - this is much much quicker

[youngy]

not sure it would corect itself that much - OEM FI systems are not boundless.

Quan-time gets deep into all this stuff - he will probably have some good views on it.

[phuk72]

Power outputs are slightly different but not so as you would notice.

What makes you think EFI is any better than carbs?

NOS on a twin is effing stupid due to the forces on the conrods. a 50bhp boost on an IL4 is 12.5 bhp per rod. It's twice that on a twin (obviously!). The standard rods will struggle to cope. (Although I confess that I keep thinking about it )

Setting up NOS is not as simple as you might imagine - getting the fuel air mix right is complicated unless you want to munch your motor (and you don't stand a chance of doing that without a bespoke map on the ECU).

[funnymachine]

Power outputs are slightly different but not so as you would notice.

What makes you think EFI is any better than carbs?

Because the exhaust sensor will correct the fuel mixture for the extra oxygen in the intake charge and I won't need to do anything other than attach gas to set it up.

NOS on a twin is effing stupid due to the forces on the conrods. a 50bhp boost on an IL4 is 12.5 bhp per rod. It's twice that on a twin (obviously!). The standard rods will struggle to cope. (Although I confess that I keep thinking about it )

I have a tried and tested system that worked really well on a monkey bike using a progressive controller and a 9BHP boost. I just need to mod it a bit.

Setting up NOS is not as simple as you might imagine - getting the fuel air mix right is complicated unless you want to munch your motor (and you don't stand a chance of doing that without a bespoke map on the ECU).

It's actually fairly easy if you are good at maths - you need to know how much fuel is flowing through the jets (if you are using a fuel pump or know the distance above the jet your fuel is) etc - there are even online calculators for working out jet sizes (robietherobot is a good one):

http://www.robietherobot.com/NitrousJetCalculator.htm

With the progressive controller I might jet it for 50BHP but can start at 10% of that - because it comes in smoothly I can get away with a bit more before it falls to bits.

It would be reasonable to expect any engine to cope with half the power output again so if standard bike is what 78RPM then you should be able to add at least 33 1/3RPM maybe even 45RPM without trouble...

Hang on - wrong forum I thought this was the gramophone recordings collectors symposium for a moment there...

Best

Mark

[phuk72]

You seem confident - go for it.

Personally, I'd buy an R1 instead.

BTW, I've taken my power output up from (dyno proven) 77 to 102 bhp without NOS so your assumptions re power increases are probably right.

[youngy]

Because the exhaust sensor will correct the fuel mixture for the extra oxygen in the intake charge and I won't need to do anything other than attach gas to set it up.

So you'd need a non-OE ECU as well, plus a modified exhaust to accomodate the exhaust sensor.

you'd be better off starting with a TDM900 really.....but if you do this, do you want to sell your TRX motor?

[funnymachine]

Personally, I'd buy an R1 instead.

Really?

I like the noise the TRX makes (because it sounds like my Ducati) but it doesn't have the length that goes with it (90 degree L twin makes bike too long).

I've ridden a blueprinted R6 which was quite good fun hitting 18,000 RPM in each gear till I ran out of runway but the TRX - TDM sounds better to my ears.

How did you get 102 BHP?

Cheers

Mark

[phuk72]

Personally, I'd buy an R1 instead.

Really?

I like the noise the TRX makes (because it sounds like my Ducati) but it doesn't have the length that goes with it (90 degree L twin makes bike too long).

I've ridden a blueprinted R6 which was quite good fun hitting 18,000 RPM in each gear till I ran out of runway but the TRX - TDM sounds better to my ears.

How did you get 102 BHP?

Cheers

Mark

I have to agree about the noise

When I say I'd buy an R1, I say that over a gassed TRX. NOS does not give power gains for anything more than a few seconds so you can only really use for extra straight line squirt - and if you want to go fast in a straight line then buy an R1 (or a Thunderace!)

102bhp is achieved by spending lots of money! Big bore kit, kent cams, gas flow, skimmed and ported head, FCR41s, Akra pipework and modded Devil Ti Can, advancing ignition etc.

[Quan-Time]

power commander make a after market ECU for the TDM900, the TRX850 is non-manageable as the ECU handles only a few base functions (it dosent even handle spark).

Stock TRX / TDM pistons may not be able to handle NOS. Im sure its possible but i havnt actually checked the pistons for anything like that (altho i DO have a spare set which i could test on).

TRX to take EFI is a bitch.. Im telling you from experience. Im half way thru it now. I have another thread you might want to look at.

NOS is usable in 3 different ways (that i know of), you first need to find what you want (fogger seems to be fairly common) and work from there.

Other than that, i strongly suspect 50hp squirt would be possible, but as stated, the rods would need replacing, OR you could use a staged squirt which is getting more common.
staged squirt is electronically controlled. Fairly basic circuit to make aswell. do a dyno run, find out what your max power is, we want the max torque, say its 4800rpm.. Where is your max RPM, say its 90hp @ 7800rpm, take 50hp (what your NOS will be) which leaves 40hp, whats your hp @ 4800rpm, is it less than 40hp ? yes ? sweet, you can run nos all day up to that rpm, soon as say... 5000rpm hits, it TURNS OFF your NOS..
This way you use NOS for launch / quick overtake. If you really wanna move, drop down a gear, you gonna be in your power zone anyway.
MANY turbo cars do this to help stop turbo lag. Soon as turbo kicks in, NOS turns off.

Or you could just put on some nice quality copper fuel lines, spray your NOS on them just before it goes to your carbies.. snap freeze your fuel, yes it work, yes you get good HP results.

Some pro-stock drag cars run intercoolers, WITHOUT turbos.. Just to get colder air.. Some bright spark thought of putting a CO2 fire extinguisher onto his intercooler, it worked a little TOO well, engine leaned out and went bang.. But it worked VERY well.. Its quite a common trick now to spray NOS on your air ducting / fuel line to get good power

NOS is NON FLAMABLE, but aids a fire.. its an oxygen replacement.

Getting back to the O2 sensor in the exhaust..
umm.. they dont really "correct" the fuel mixture, its used as a tuning aid on the dyno, it CAN be used real time, but you need a fairly good ECU for that. When you get a dyno tune, if you DONT have a O2 meter, they stick one up your exhaust for you.. So you dont always need one. Its a tool for tuning.. sorta like a hammer.. use it well, its great, use it incorrectly, you screw yourself.

NOS on a "monkey bike" is sooo not the same thing. they make like 5hp (altho i know someone with 13hp from 50cc i think it was) and the conrod size is WAY WAY overkill for what they are. so you could put buckets of power thru them safely.. unless they are the crappy chinese built ones, watchout for them.
Also 2 strokes respond much better to NOS than a 4 stroke.

ok, ive yapped enough.. unless you need more info, ill leave it at this.

[Quan-Time]

oh, and just quickly while i think of it, you can make a R1 sound like a ducati, its NOT hard.. and with a stock exhaust / induction aswell

[funnymachine]

NOS is usable in 3 different ways (that i know of), you first need to find what you want (fogger seems to be fairly common) and work from there.

Other than that, i strongly suspect 50hp squirt would be possible, but as stated, the rods would need replacing, OR you could use a staged squirt which is getting more common.
staged squirt is electronically controlled.

I have all these things already. My controller has a start and end amount (in %) and a timed curve - I can put 50BHP jetting on the bike then run at 10% (5BHP) - did this on my Monkey and the first thing to melt was the end of the spark plug which is now rattling around inside my exhaust. Didn't damage my engine at all despite the fact it is a Chinese copy and managed to boost it by about 9BHP - using methanol on the fogger instead of petrol also helped.

Fairly basic circuit to make aswell. do a dyno run, find out what your max power is, we want the max torque, say its 4800rpm.. Where is your max RPM, say its 90hp @ 7800rpm, take 50hp (what your NOS will be) which leaves 40hp, whats your hp @ 4800rpm, is it less than 40hp ? yes ? sweet, you can run nos all day up to that rpm, soon as say... 5000rpm hits, it TURNS OFF your NOS..
This way you use NOS for launch / quick overtake. If you really wanna move, drop down a gear, you gonna be in your power zone anyway.
MANY turbo cars do this to help stop turbo lag. Soon as turbo kicks in, NOS turns off.

I don't really follow this. I just want the kick in the power curve - it's exciting. I need to sort out the chassis first anyway or I'll end up on my arse. I need to get the engine further forward I guess which is why I wanted to know if TRX and TDM use same mounts. I wanted to work out if I could upgrade to a TDM900 motor later.

NOS is NON FLAMABLE, but aids a fire.. its an oxygen replacement.

Yes the oxygen gets separated from the nitrogen at high temperature (inside the engine) and allows the engine to burn more fuel.

Getting back to the O2 sensor in the exhaust..
umm.. they dont really "correct" the fuel mixture, its used as a tuning aid on the dyno, it CAN be used real time, but you need a fairly good ECU for that. When you get a dyno tune, if you DONT have a O2 meter, they stick one up your exhaust for you.. So you dont always need one. Its a tool for tuning.. sorta like a hammer.. use it well, its great, use it incorrectly, you screw yourself.

I was thinking of the modern ECU you get in cars and was asking of TDM900 has same thing - because it does have EFI and should have a number of sensors that control it. As with any modern vehicle, I should be able to run a TDM900 off bio-ethanol (E85) for example and it should just put more fuel in the engine to compensate. I should also be able to put a NOS dry system on it and it should compensate (up to a point - depending on the range of the sensors). The ECU should calculate the fuel injection period and injection timing, enabling it to ensure the delivery of the right amount of fuel for the right duration and at the right time.

NOS on a "monkey bike" is sooo not the same thing. they make like 5hp (altho i know someone with 13hp from 50cc i think it was) and the conrod size is WAY WAY overkill for what they are. so you could put buckets of power thru them safely.. unless they are the crappy chinese built ones, watchout for them.
Also 2 strokes respond much better to NOS than a 4 stroke.

Actually I completely disagree on this. An engine is an engine is an engine. There is no difference whatsoever. NOS is simply a way of increasing the amount of combustible charge - like turbo charging, super charging whatever. More fuel and air, bigger bang. Yes a 2 stroke is more efficient with NOS because it takes advantage of the increased crankcase pressure as the gas expands due to the heat of the engine, beyond that it is all the same, even my lawn mower

Cheers

Mark

[funnymachine]

oh, and just quickly while i think of it, you can make a R1 sound like a ducati, its NOT hard.. and with a stock exhaust / induction aswell

The Ducati twins have an L twin firing pattern with both pistons on the same kingpin so what happens is the engine fires, then it fires again after 270 degress then it waits for 450 degrees then it fires again.

The TRX850 is a parallel twin with a 270 degree crank so though it is a parallel twin it fires unevenly and just happens to have the exact same firing pattern as a Ducati (I am sure you already know all this).

But how would you make an R1 sound like this?

Cheers

Mark

[twolfe]

ECU's on bikes ain't the same. They can't compensate for major changes without being remapped (manually). It is a fixed program. If you poured a tankfull of bio-ethanol in your bike it would go like a bucket of poo, because the program isn't set up for it. The same would apply to NOS. You would get more oxygen, but for set revs,conditions etc, no more fuel would be added. Power comanders would be useless if oe ECU's were that sophisticated. They work because different maps are available for them. Very few modern cars (if any) would have an ecu sophisticated enough to handle changes like that.