Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
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- dandywarhol
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Advance is for economy. Pre ECU cars had a vacuum advance capsule which only gave around 10 degrees additional advance on light throttle/cruise conditions for economy. Whenever you apply full load, the advance knocks back 10 degrees to avoid damaging the engine
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
If you look at your std trx 100 point map with the TPS enabled you'll see advance up to 45-47 degrees at 10-15% throttle, so that little vaccum advance unit became obselete.
The fuel molecules aren't crammed in as tight as it would be on full throttle hence the slower burn rate.
Leaner fuel mix burns slower too.
Cam timing all plays with cylinder pressure too and 1 reason why a map for 1 persons rebuild may not be suited for another but they may give you a base to start from.
Too much advance on small throttle openings was 1 of the reasons I found I had issues getting a good head gasket seal. Rolling off the throttle would build cylinder pressure so with more overlap I feel I'll still be able to use the copper head gasket with further tweaking of the timing.
I feel the kent Yam 9 cams really don't compliment the level of tuning once you increase compression over 11.5 with flowed heads. Just like ignition timing so much of your torque and power is controlled by the cam timing .
That's why you have all the making of a really efficient motor Robert, it just needs to open its lungs a little more. You can potentially find another 10hp with no real loss down low because even with the extra duration and lift you'll sill have the efficiency of close to 100Nm from 4000rpm and a longer flatter torque curve.
The fuel molecules aren't crammed in as tight as it would be on full throttle hence the slower burn rate.
Leaner fuel mix burns slower too.
Cam timing all plays with cylinder pressure too and 1 reason why a map for 1 persons rebuild may not be suited for another but they may give you a base to start from.
Too much advance on small throttle openings was 1 of the reasons I found I had issues getting a good head gasket seal. Rolling off the throttle would build cylinder pressure so with more overlap I feel I'll still be able to use the copper head gasket with further tweaking of the timing.
I feel the kent Yam 9 cams really don't compliment the level of tuning once you increase compression over 11.5 with flowed heads. Just like ignition timing so much of your torque and power is controlled by the cam timing .
That's why you have all the making of a really efficient motor Robert, it just needs to open its lungs a little more. You can potentially find another 10hp with no real loss down low because even with the extra duration and lift you'll sill have the efficiency of close to 100Nm from 4000rpm and a longer flatter torque curve.
laughter is the best medicine
- dandywarhol
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Which vacuum advance unit on a TRX cobba - #confused
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Sorry Alan,
Just making the comparrision between the ECU set up now to a old school distributor as they can dial in a lot more advance when setting up the program and the TPS provides the throttle position where as you mentioned this was done by manifold vaccum back in the old school days.
Just making the comparrision between the ECU set up now to a old school distributor as they can dial in a lot more advance when setting up the program and the TPS provides the throttle position where as you mentioned this was done by manifold vaccum back in the old school days.
laughter is the best medicine
- dandywarhol
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Ah, bike's been tucked away since October, was about to go looking for a mysterious vac pipe on the ol'girl
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white
- Overlord Neil
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Does anyone have, or can give an idiots guide to creating an economy map?
Also I've noticed since changing from the OEM ecu its harder to start, like the original ECO really give it a kink in the pants. It still starts everytime but needs choke and a bit of throttle where the old ECU would just fire off the button. Any thoughts?
I got as far as plugging in my laptop to the ignition box, got connected... then confused, so disconnected. Working on the principle if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Also I've noticed since changing from the OEM ecu its harder to start, like the original ECO really give it a kink in the pants. It still starts everytime but needs choke and a bit of throttle where the old ECU would just fire off the button. Any thoughts?
I got as far as plugging in my laptop to the ignition box, got connected... then confused, so disconnected. Working on the principle if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
C90, TS50, H100, H100, CB250, GS500, Tiger 955i, TRX850, Tuono, ZZR600, CBR954RR
- Tarwetijger
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Difficult starting is because the ignitech unit lets the engine turn 1 complete rotation before it starts to spark. This is a setting you can easily turn off. So you should log in again.
Economy (fuel wise, right?) starts with the TPS setup properly. Described by Cobba many times.
Log in (you already are, aren't you ), turn on TPS if it isn't already and calibrate 0% and 100% throttle. It 's not difficult.
Economy (fuel wise, right?) starts with the TPS setup properly. Described by Cobba many times.
Log in (you already are, aren't you ), turn on TPS if it isn't already and calibrate 0% and 100% throttle. It 's not difficult.
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
I found the out of the box TDM850 map lost me 0.5-1 L/100. Bumping the low throttle parts the map 4k RPM and under by just 1 degree got me the economy back.
- Overlord Neil
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Thanks guys, I might have a bit of playtime at the weekend to see what happens.
C90, TS50, H100, H100, CB250, GS500, Tiger 955i, TRX850, Tuono, ZZR600, CBR954RR
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Did you take a dyno reading with air fuel ratios to start goose???
If not the problem may be it's running rich to start and advancing timing is only accomodating for the slower burn rate of the rich fuel mixture???
Just something for all to be mindful of, a map to suit 1 trx does not nessesarily suit another.
Perfect example being using the map I have installed on my ignition suits the Nojima twin system but with the Akra system to find gains in the dip in the torque curve , I have to advance from 4000 to 6000 rpm to deal with the richer mixture from the different exhaust pulse.
Make sure your exhaust is well sealed as I've found most sniffers used on dynos sit close to the exhaust can join to the link pipe. Any leaks here will corrupt your A/F ratio reading.
By all means it's always fun to tinker but it's best to take a base reading to start and the optimum time to do this is after a carby rebuild and even better , a major service with valve clearances done.
Please remember too a map designed for economy will differ than 1 for power.
This is where your 100 point TPS mapping gives you gains too on part throttle openings.
I've found myself there is plenty of scope for change here too for gains in response.
Another thing to be mindful of too is a lower octane rated fuel burns faster but is more prone to detonation.
So maybe we should set a protocol if you choose to post on this thread...
1/. Advise on state of tune of your motorcycle ( pipes, carbies, air intake, cams etc) including info on previous service history.
Some choose to oil their K&N filters and this gives a restriction to air flow for an example so it only takes a couple of things to differ and you may find yourself running out of headroom and running close to detonation. ( by headroom I mean that safety margin before too much advance and detonation or too much retard and too much heat on exhaust valves and headers)
2/. A bonus would be an Air fuel reading as a base.
3/. Intended use of mapping. Eg economy, , power , general day to day with some sports riding etc
4/. Choice of octane to suit ...91 ron 95 or 98 , ethanol blend,
The more information the better As they say.. Communication is the key.
To those just starting to tinker with the program....
You can alway just open up the ignition program on the disc with no connection and tinker and play to get familiar with the program.
It doesn't matter if you make changes because when you finally establish a connection on your ignition. When you click on READ..then verify, it will read the map installed in the actual ignition module. If you've been tinkering on the program previously with no connection , it will just override any changes made while tinkering...
If you make changes while connection is established, don't fear it won't be installed into the actual ignition module until you click on the PROGRAM button..
Personally I like to copy the v88 program from the disc into my laptop and work from there so I always have the original std copy unmolested...
Also the ignition will remember the last 9 previous maps installed so you can easily just load the std or a previous map straight back into the ignition too.
( you access this via FILE .. Top of page on the left )
If not the problem may be it's running rich to start and advancing timing is only accomodating for the slower burn rate of the rich fuel mixture???
Just something for all to be mindful of, a map to suit 1 trx does not nessesarily suit another.
Perfect example being using the map I have installed on my ignition suits the Nojima twin system but with the Akra system to find gains in the dip in the torque curve , I have to advance from 4000 to 6000 rpm to deal with the richer mixture from the different exhaust pulse.
Make sure your exhaust is well sealed as I've found most sniffers used on dynos sit close to the exhaust can join to the link pipe. Any leaks here will corrupt your A/F ratio reading.
By all means it's always fun to tinker but it's best to take a base reading to start and the optimum time to do this is after a carby rebuild and even better , a major service with valve clearances done.
Please remember too a map designed for economy will differ than 1 for power.
This is where your 100 point TPS mapping gives you gains too on part throttle openings.
I've found myself there is plenty of scope for change here too for gains in response.
Another thing to be mindful of too is a lower octane rated fuel burns faster but is more prone to detonation.
So maybe we should set a protocol if you choose to post on this thread...
1/. Advise on state of tune of your motorcycle ( pipes, carbies, air intake, cams etc) including info on previous service history.
Some choose to oil their K&N filters and this gives a restriction to air flow for an example so it only takes a couple of things to differ and you may find yourself running out of headroom and running close to detonation. ( by headroom I mean that safety margin before too much advance and detonation or too much retard and too much heat on exhaust valves and headers)
2/. A bonus would be an Air fuel reading as a base.
3/. Intended use of mapping. Eg economy, , power , general day to day with some sports riding etc
4/. Choice of octane to suit ...91 ron 95 or 98 , ethanol blend,
The more information the better As they say.. Communication is the key.
To those just starting to tinker with the program....
You can alway just open up the ignition program on the disc with no connection and tinker and play to get familiar with the program.
It doesn't matter if you make changes because when you finally establish a connection on your ignition. When you click on READ..then verify, it will read the map installed in the actual ignition module. If you've been tinkering on the program previously with no connection , it will just override any changes made while tinkering...
If you make changes while connection is established, don't fear it won't be installed into the actual ignition module until you click on the PROGRAM button..
Personally I like to copy the v88 program from the disc into my laptop and work from there so I always have the original std copy unmolested...
Also the ignition will remember the last 9 previous maps installed so you can easily just load the std or a previous map straight back into the ignition too.
( you access this via FILE .. Top of page on the left )
laughter is the best medicine
- Overlord Neil
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- Location: Sunny Emsworth
Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
So, little one went to sleep early which gave me 30 minutes to play in the garage... yes it really is that tight on time.
Plugged in, connected up, sussed the TPS... bit of a no-brainer but I somehow missed it the first time around! Set the rev limiter at 8k. Set the revolutions till spark down to 0. Had a play with the map.
I've uploaded the standard TDM850 map, but then tinkered with it, advanced everything below 4k by a a couple of degrees as suggested by Goose and uploaded the map with the engine running, instantly sounded smother and revs picked up by ~100 rpm, so backed off the manual throttle position adjust to get the tick over back to 1000rpm. Few more tweaks, not really knowing what I was doing but, *brace for impact*, ended up with this:
Will report back on how it runs tomorrow. Just for my own sake, theres no chance of making the thing unrideable with the few tweaks I've made is there? Trixxie is my main commuter again now and the only bike I've got insured for the road, so I'll be pig sick if it dumps me on the A3. Dyno/Track time is not an option at the moment, its on the fly all the way, I might take my laptop with me tomorrow just in case its dog rough on the run in.
Data set:
Set-up: Standard engine, K&N Filter, Standard Pipe with Remus Carbon Cans + Db Killers, Dynojet Stage 1 kit (a 145 jet).
Requirements: Economy
Fuel: UK Standard 95 Ron unleaded
Plugged in, connected up, sussed the TPS... bit of a no-brainer but I somehow missed it the first time around! Set the rev limiter at 8k. Set the revolutions till spark down to 0. Had a play with the map.
I've uploaded the standard TDM850 map, but then tinkered with it, advanced everything below 4k by a a couple of degrees as suggested by Goose and uploaded the map with the engine running, instantly sounded smother and revs picked up by ~100 rpm, so backed off the manual throttle position adjust to get the tick over back to 1000rpm. Few more tweaks, not really knowing what I was doing but, *brace for impact*, ended up with this:
Will report back on how it runs tomorrow. Just for my own sake, theres no chance of making the thing unrideable with the few tweaks I've made is there? Trixxie is my main commuter again now and the only bike I've got insured for the road, so I'll be pig sick if it dumps me on the A3. Dyno/Track time is not an option at the moment, its on the fly all the way, I might take my laptop with me tomorrow just in case its dog rough on the run in.
Data set:
Set-up: Standard engine, K&N Filter, Standard Pipe with Remus Carbon Cans + Db Killers, Dynojet Stage 1 kit (a 145 jet).
Requirements: Economy
Fuel: UK Standard 95 Ron unleaded
C90, TS50, H100, H100, CB250, GS500, Tiger 955i, TRX850, Tuono, ZZR600, CBR954RR
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
No dyno or readings done, cobba.
But you are right, the key piece of information that I did not provide was that I have non-factory needles and jets that were installed by a dyno tuner using the stock ignition while owned by the previous owner. I don't have the specs, I might go investigate. This does make my comments fairly worthless for anyone else.
Agreed that it could just be masking a rich condition. My observations are simply that with the stock ignition, economy would typically be in the 5.x L/100 range, and after fitting the ignitech, despite being nicer to ride, it went in the 6.x L/100 range.
Since by far the majority of operation was in the <4k RPM <20% throttle range, I figured at those low loads there wasn't much I could hurt by bumping timing in that range by a degree or two to see what happened. The result was that the fuel economy improved back to previous numbers but rideability gained from the ignitech was retained.
But you are right, the key piece of information that I did not provide was that I have non-factory needles and jets that were installed by a dyno tuner using the stock ignition while owned by the previous owner. I don't have the specs, I might go investigate. This does make my comments fairly worthless for anyone else.
Agreed that it could just be masking a rich condition. My observations are simply that with the stock ignition, economy would typically be in the 5.x L/100 range, and after fitting the ignitech, despite being nicer to ride, it went in the 6.x L/100 range.
Since by far the majority of operation was in the <4k RPM <20% throttle range, I figured at those low loads there wasn't much I could hurt by bumping timing in that range by a degree or two to see what happened. The result was that the fuel economy improved back to previous numbers but rideability gained from the ignitech was retained.
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Just a note...
The change from Winter blend to Summer blend of fuel here in Australia is 1st November to the 31st March. BP fuel contains no ethanol in it's premium and ultimate ranges.
I'm still chasing answers from Shell, Caltex and Mobil.
You'll find performance/economy gains with a Summer blend of fuel.
The change from Winter blend to Summer blend of fuel here in Australia is 1st November to the 31st March. BP fuel contains no ethanol in it's premium and ultimate ranges.
I'm still chasing answers from Shell, Caltex and Mobil.
You'll find performance/economy gains with a Summer blend of fuel.
laughter is the best medicine
- highlander
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
oh MY matron!!!!Overlord Neil wrote:... give it a kink in the pants.
Projection Racing 2-1 with Akropovic hex carbon can, Keihin FCRs @ 150 main, R6 shock conversion, 520 chain conversion, Ignitech ignition, Li-po battery. Further weight reduction & front suspension in progress ....
- Overlord Neil
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
I can't spray my worms probably...
C90, TS50, H100, H100, CB250, GS500, Tiger 955i, TRX850, Tuono, ZZR600, CBR954RR