Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
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Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Ok, here's the place to share your TCIP4 ignition settings, custom maps and other directly related information.
Please list all relevant mods to your setup along with any tips, maps, etc. For example, low resistance coils would be relevant, a YZF swingarm, not so much.
Please keep general ignition discussions out of the sticky thread, it makes it too hard for others to get to the good stuff.
DISCLAIMER
Just because someone, somewhere, with a different bike than you, has made something work, does NOT mean that it WILL work for YOU and your bike.
If in doubt, don't. (or at least ask more questions to try and eliminate all doubt)
Please list all relevant mods to your setup along with any tips, maps, etc. For example, low resistance coils would be relevant, a YZF swingarm, not so much.
Please keep general ignition discussions out of the sticky thread, it makes it too hard for others to get to the good stuff.
DISCLAIMER
Just because someone, somewhere, with a different bike than you, has made something work, does NOT mean that it WILL work for YOU and your bike.
If in doubt, don't. (or at least ask more questions to try and eliminate all doubt)
dicky
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Take a photo of the 100 point map on the screen or screen shot and post that way.
A lot easier than looking at a word file.
I'll post mine shortly.
I'm working on the theory that the default TCIP4 program works well with a std motor.
I feel with the piston design I've gone for, I should only have to retard the same timing curve to deal with the extra compression by 3*.
A little research and my assumptions where confirmed with Allan Cathcart running a 4* retarded timing curve from a std ECU and looking at a SP11 timing map for a trx with 6 preset programs.
The SP11 has an optimum map the same as the TCIP4 curve and they have just retarded that same curve by 2, 3 and 4* for their 3 Hi comp options.
There is also 2 advanced curves a little different to optimum as options for emissions and economy or ECO as they call them.
So a pretty good starting point.
With Carrillo rods and lighter pistons I see no reason why I can not continue the advance curve all the way to 9,000rpm and not stop at 7,000rpm like the default TCIP4 map.
One reason they stop the advance at 33* at 7,000rpm to 10,000rpm is to aid the rev limiter and the std TRX power usually tapers off from 7,500 anyhow.
A lot easier than looking at a word file.
I'll post mine shortly.
I'm working on the theory that the default TCIP4 program works well with a std motor.
I feel with the piston design I've gone for, I should only have to retard the same timing curve to deal with the extra compression by 3*.
A little research and my assumptions where confirmed with Allan Cathcart running a 4* retarded timing curve from a std ECU and looking at a SP11 timing map for a trx with 6 preset programs.
The SP11 has an optimum map the same as the TCIP4 curve and they have just retarded that same curve by 2, 3 and 4* for their 3 Hi comp options.
There is also 2 advanced curves a little different to optimum as options for emissions and economy or ECO as they call them.
So a pretty good starting point.
With Carrillo rods and lighter pistons I see no reason why I can not continue the advance curve all the way to 9,000rpm and not stop at 7,000rpm like the default TCIP4 map.
One reason they stop the advance at 33* at 7,000rpm to 10,000rpm is to aid the rev limiter and the std TRX power usually tapers off from 7,500 anyhow.
Last edited by cobbadiggabuddyblooo on Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
A knock sensor would be nice and would of course make things easier. If you could data log from the ignition and knock sensor you could come up with an excellent map pretty quickly my getting to the knock point and then dialing a couple of degrees advance in,
That said, it is pretty easy to detect without sensor on the trx as it gets harsh. The hard part is getting a record of the throttle position and rpm and then making adjustments, well not so much hard as time consuming.
To my mind, the way to go is get a good starting point and then advance until you get knock / harshness and then dial it back a couple of degrees.
The be honest the maps we all use should end up very close, even with modification as there will not be an huge difference in cylinder volume and also with the central plug location the burn times should be pretty close.
I am going to spend some time today if I can looking at your comments Cobba
Its actually an enjoyable process and a lot more pleasant than tuning the carbs, but it is indeed time consuming
I see this being an ongoing process of refinement between the carbs and the ignition, over time it will continue to improve.
(that said the needle jet wear on the TRX is an annoying variable)
That said, it is pretty easy to detect without sensor on the trx as it gets harsh. The hard part is getting a record of the throttle position and rpm and then making adjustments, well not so much hard as time consuming.
To my mind, the way to go is get a good starting point and then advance until you get knock / harshness and then dial it back a couple of degrees.
The be honest the maps we all use should end up very close, even with modification as there will not be an huge difference in cylinder volume and also with the central plug location the burn times should be pretty close.
I am going to spend some time today if I can looking at your comments Cobba
Its actually an enjoyable process and a lot more pleasant than tuning the carbs, but it is indeed time consuming
I see this being an ongoing process of refinement between the carbs and the ignition, over time it will continue to improve.
(that said the needle jet wear on the TRX is an annoying variable)
Paul
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Does anyone know what figure is available for maximum advance on the trx. This will be limited by flywheel sensors. Whatever it is needs to be established before programming the ignition. Its no use putting in 34 deg in the ignitech if the max available is 33deg.
2010 Street triple R 675 Road bike
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2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Could not find the actual degrees on our lumps, but this is quite interesting...the sparker lags:Silver wrote:Does anyone know what figure is available for maximum advance on the trx. This will be limited by flywheel sensors. Whatever it is needs to be established before programming the ignition. Its no use putting in 34 deg in the ignitech if the max available is 33deg.
http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Reading the bikeboy ducati piece was why i asked the question.
2010 Street triple R 675 Road bike
2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
SZR660 road and track project
2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
SZR660 road and track project
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Lag was found on some Ducati's but other bikes had no issues at all and this was sorted in V 88 .
If you have say 30* advance you need to remember you have a base advance and if this is 10* that gives you from 10* to 40*.
The TPS software also gives you further advance than 40*
You can manipulate the map too by using the correction on each cylinder or placing a different base value( ie 13* will give you a new base of 7* to retard the whole map by 3*)
If you have say 30* advance you need to remember you have a base advance and if this is 10* that gives you from 10* to 40*.
The TPS software also gives you further advance than 40*
You can manipulate the map too by using the correction on each cylinder or placing a different base value( ie 13* will give you a new base of 7* to retard the whole map by 3*)
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
Maps that may work for me may not get the same result to another persons bike but there are still a few basic fundamentals that will give you a good starting point from the default curve.
Higher compression usually needs further retarding the map.
Cam profile allows for more flow and again more air fuel with molecules crammed closer together burn faster.
A flatter Piston profile with no sharp edges, good atomisation, and a flowed head that gives you good swirl again allows for a little less advance.
A well tuned exhaust again again all these factors allow for less advance to there respective tuning.
I will not be suprised if I can retard my spark even further around 4000rpm because that is where the cams and exhaust are tuned.
There may be very little change from dyno results but it just smoothens things out.
Coils, plugs and voltage all come into play too as well as atmospheric conditions and you water temps.
I noticed today the temps where down by a couple of degrees and I was riding in pretty much the same conditions as the last run before retarding the overall map.
But again its still not to hard to get yourself a map within the ballpark region.
I should mention velocity has a part to play in your timing too.
The difference between the 41mm fcr and 40mm tdmr will factor in on lower revs with the tdmr's allowing a little more velocity down low so you may be able to run a slightly less advance under 3000-3500rpm. And with the choice of upto 2mm oversize valves all these little alteration have their own influences on velocity.
Silly me I forgot to mention fuel and octane ratings too
Higher compression usually needs further retarding the map.
Cam profile allows for more flow and again more air fuel with molecules crammed closer together burn faster.
A flatter Piston profile with no sharp edges, good atomisation, and a flowed head that gives you good swirl again allows for a little less advance.
A well tuned exhaust again again all these factors allow for less advance to there respective tuning.
I will not be suprised if I can retard my spark even further around 4000rpm because that is where the cams and exhaust are tuned.
There may be very little change from dyno results but it just smoothens things out.
Coils, plugs and voltage all come into play too as well as atmospheric conditions and you water temps.
I noticed today the temps where down by a couple of degrees and I was riding in pretty much the same conditions as the last run before retarding the overall map.
But again its still not to hard to get yourself a map within the ballpark region.
I should mention velocity has a part to play in your timing too.
The difference between the 41mm fcr and 40mm tdmr will factor in on lower revs with the tdmr's allowing a little more velocity down low so you may be able to run a slightly less advance under 3000-3500rpm. And with the choice of upto 2mm oversize valves all these little alteration have their own influences on velocity.
Silly me I forgot to mention fuel and octane ratings too
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
I'm even more confused now. I thought advancing the timing was the route to more power.
I still cant understand how you can advance the timing using the ignitech beyond the pysical boundaries of the basic advance obtainable from the flywheel pick up. surely we need to know the boundaries before starting to change maps.
am i missing something here?
Dave
I still cant understand how you can advance the timing using the ignitech beyond the pysical boundaries of the basic advance obtainable from the flywheel pick up. surely we need to know the boundaries before starting to change maps.
am i missing something here?
Dave
2010 Street triple R 675 Road bike
2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
SZR660 road and track project
2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
SZR660 road and track project
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
10*base at 1,150rpm and you have 40* of advance as measured on the spare rotor I have. So static advance is 8* to 48*
Hump is 52mm long and each degree is about 1.25mm with an outside circumfrence of 460mm .
The three lines counterclockwise on your rotor are TDC marked with T beside the line , 8* static( start of your hump and the 3rd line is your 10* base.
I know my TDC mark is true as proven via measuring TDC on my rebuild.
Hump is 52mm long and each degree is about 1.25mm with an outside circumfrence of 460mm .
The three lines counterclockwise on your rotor are TDC marked with T beside the line , 8* static( start of your hump and the 3rd line is your 10* base.
I know my TDC mark is true as proven via measuring TDC on my rebuild.
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
The route to getting the most power is to have the flame front burning across the piston at around 15-17* ATDC. When all that heat/ pressure is forcing the piston down. Timing advance increases with RPM so that's where your base at 10*advance at 1150rpm initiating the spark will be at that complete burn stage around 15*ATDC to produce maximum power.Silver wrote:I'm even more confused now. I thought advancing the timing was the route to more power.
Dave
Now from here all the other factors come into play.
So many factors are variables like atmospheric conditions and just how good that last tank of fuel was. So you may find an absolute at 9am on a perfect day with good fuel when dynoed, but come tomorrow when stinking hot and up ontop of that mountain and fuel from a small country servo and you may find yourself down 3 to 5 HP but you haven't touch anything.
So you shoot for the happy medium
Last edited by cobbadiggabuddyblooo on Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
i'll look elsewhere for info on this.
2010 Street triple R 675 Road bike
2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
SZR660 road and track project
2018 BMW G310GS
1988 Honda XBR500(converting to GB500 spec)
SZR660 road and track project
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- Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:19 am
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Re: Ignitech TCIP4 Ignition Maps
1 other thing before you go, ask yourself what you want to tune the bike to do.
Good example...
A timing curve for the economy orientated riders who want the most MPG will have a much more advanced map due to the nature of their throttle response they would use.
Just look at the amount of advance you see on 10-25% throttle on the TPS program.
Apart from all that, its not rocket science but just common sense really to the fundamentals of ignition timing.
Hi Ho Silver away
Good example...
A timing curve for the economy orientated riders who want the most MPG will have a much more advanced map due to the nature of their throttle response they would use.
Just look at the amount of advance you see on 10-25% throttle on the TPS program.
Apart from all that, its not rocket science but just common sense really to the fundamentals of ignition timing.
Hi Ho Silver away
laughter is the best medicine