What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

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cobbadiggabuddyblooo
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:08 pm

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Time for another dyno run hopefully next week to see what gains I have now with the latest ignition mapping and motor sounds and feels good with a smooth lower rpm acceleration that really starts to develop over 3500 rpm. 5000rpm is my overlap influence and drop in torque with the motor in current set up and I can feel that now for that second or 2 as the revs climb .

I'll use next weeks dyno run as my new dyno reference point as the previous run was with the bottom tray set up too but with retarded mapping.

After working out the maths I made up my snorkel/ plate that works together with the bottom plate on the frame and come the dyno day organised in mid August for the forum members, I'll fit the snorkel plate in place on the tank and see how that influences things.

I may need a 2-3mm spacer to lift the tank but I'll leave the plate where it is at present as I can easily place a washer between the plate and tank mount to open the gap.
If no real gains on the dyno result compared to my reference run , I'll remove the front tank bolts and simply lift the tank 2-3mm for another run to see if a little more gap influences velocity and my torque dip.

That gives me a couple of weeks to tidy up the edges on the tank plate and look at options of making a mould of the airbox if all work out well.
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:24 am

http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/te ... 50gr03.pdf

and you thought E=MC2 was enough to get your head around... :lol: :lol:
But bypass most of the figures, it gives a good idea on how the vacuum created in the motor to draw in the fuel is influenced by so many factors and basic computer modelling for fuel injection is put together.
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by Tarwetijger » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:55 am

cobbadiggabuddyblooo wrote:http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/te ... 50gr03.pdf

and you thought E=MC2 was enough to get your head around... :lol: :lol:
But bypass most of the figures, it gives a good idea on how the vacuum created in the motor to draw in the fuel is influenced by so many factors and basic computer modelling for fuel injection is put together.
They even mention this is a simplified calculation model. :shock: :lol:
An interesting comparison between car and motorcycle engines though.

I am surprised you run a 180 tyre! Have you read this topic: Effect of wider rear wheel?
cobbadiggabuddyblooo wrote:Yes I made up a few templates of the Over, Nojima and Akra systems including dimensions and sizes.
Have you drawn conclusions from this?

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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:32 am

Gidday Robert,
You've been quite for a while mate....
Too many new toys to play with... :lol: :lol:
I learn't a big lesson on this from the R6 rear shock mod I had for a short time 4-5 yrs ago.
As for the 180 rear tyre, I've tuned both front and rear suspension to suit the needs.
That's why they get away with running a 6.25" rear on the Over trx.

Yes the maths are a bit of a brain cell burner and best to just bypass that but still found it interesting reading to support the theory behind how I'm building and tuning the motor.


As for exhausts, it comes down to where you want to tune your motor to perform and they need to compliment the other components to make the most of what you want.


Here's some interesting facts I came across today too on fuel differences between winter and summer.
https://itisscience.wordpress.com/2011/ ... ifference/
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:04 pm

DETONATION RESONANT FREQUENCY

= 900
--------------
3.14 X cylinder radius

= 6.3 K
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:17 pm

Image

I've done a couple of dyno runs since fitting the new cams and here are a couple of observations when looking at the results. The result above is better after a little tuning than the woeful first run...
The print out up top was from the last run 3 days ago.
I was just shy of 105hp with the Kent cams and fueling was pretty flat at just over 13 A/F ratio. 155 mains / needle 3rd from top.

With the new cams and 162.5 mains needle 4th from top, A/F was just on 13 until 8000rpm and started to drop to mid 12's by 9000rpm.
The main problem was a huge drop down to mid 10's on my A/F from 4700rpm to 6000rpm and a massive dip in my torque curve.
I actually lost 10NM of torque in this region and lost HP plus I made no extra max HP.
I then attached my own O2 sensor which reads from the headers and not just a sniffer in the tail pipe.
I took my own A/F readings and they where similar just a little richer than the dyno result.(Akra can fitted with good seal)

So with the info I had and reading I could take from my O2 sensor I started tuning once again...
Shifting the needle back to the 3rd from top made a small gains in response and things improved with further advance timing changes in the mid range but still a big hole in the mid range torque curve.
( needle 2nd from top found it hunting for fuel)
.
1 thing was apparent though, with the air box I made up fitted, my A/F readings from 7500rpm actually went from 12.5 and steadily climbed to low 13's , the opposite to the dyno results because from 180km onwards there is plenty of air being fed into the box.

I found an extra 2.5Hp on my max reading by changing the muffler from the shorter Akrapovic R6 can to the Megacycle can I had made up which was slightly longer.
But with not a complete seal around the link pipe it gave me a 1.5 points higher A/F reading than at the headers with my own O2 sensor. The dyno O2 sniffer sat pretty close to where the can joins the link pipe so something to be aware of.( A little sealant fixed this problem so the A/F reading on the map above has been corrupted to read leaner by the leaking muffler join.

But I still have a big dip( all be it not quite as bad as the first run -5hp at 5500 and -10 at 6000rpm) in the mid range torque as you can see and A/F on the dyno results but this is why the dyno is just a tool to help tuning and not the be all and end all as my A/F with the O2 sensor on the road is a lot more stable and there is just a slight hesitation if I'm at full throttle by 5,000rpm plus the different top end A/F ratios.

So I suspect this dip in the curve on the dyno is actually from the Accelerator pump and lack of air flow at the dyno room. That's right where your twisting that last 30% of the throttle to WOT.

My next dyno run, I'll dis-connect the Acc pump to see how things go.
I feel I may have to adjust the level of fuel stored in the Acc pump to give me a shorter shot of raw fuel when twisting the throttle.
Last edited by cobbadiggabuddyblooo on Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by Killerwhale » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:16 pm

Many many years ago i read up on a dude who put a stripe (cable tie) on the acc pump so the squirt is immidiate and not spring loaded. I´ve ridden that way ever since.
When my mech put the 900 in he cut the tie and i think i felt it so a tie went back on it.
I also have boyesen bottoms on my carbs....


EDIT:
My A/F went rich right at the very top at first so i actually bored the 200 main air to 220 and it helped.
When i think of it i remember stuff i forgot many moons ago....
Last edited by Killerwhale on Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:57 am

Aahh yes Mathias.. Udaysen has done a the same with a cable tie.
I also looked at the the Boysen quick shot QS3 I think it's called that has an adjustable needle set up on the ACC pump bowl leak jet but not sure if it will fowl the oil filler tube.
This will regulate how much is shot but as you mentioned with the cable tie, it stops any lag from the spring.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130532117424

I'll try for another run in the next week or so before the dyno day. I'll go for a ride and time the throttle roll on to WOT from 3000rpm to 9000 in 4th and get an idea on how many KPH / second I accelerate and just check the dyno operator has selected the correct load ramp to suit my trx acceleration rate on the dyno.
I contacted Dyno Dynamics today who manufacture the dyno in Melbourne and they where pretty helpful in explaining about the workings of their dyno, their software and options available for loading the drum and how this can effect readings.
This also may be causing the dip to look so bad...
If the loading is too high and kicks in at a higher speed than (say 70kph instead of 50kph )this will equate to the bogging down too.

They are not as simple and easy to use like a dynojet inertia dyno which you can not load and will just give a wide open throttle reading.
From what I understand Dyno Dynamics readings are about 12-15% lower than you would see on a Dynojet inertia dyno too.
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:47 am

I took the carbies off today to do a couple of mods to the airbox I made and I noticed the ACC pump shot fuel for around 3 seconds after twisting the throttle....
Mm M I think I'm onto something here and this confirmed my suspicions.... 8) 8)

I love the Internet... I knew the squirt duration seemed long... 3 seconds from when you stop twisting the throttle and here is the way around this thanks to the link I'll place up shortly but here is the info with part numbers to change the diaphragm rubber with longer stopper length/ shorter duration..

Be mindful this may not suit all TRX's with FCR's and the 3 sec shot would prob suit most std / fcr TRX's .. You do day to day commuting and std pistons you may run the risk of leaner mixture and detonation.

Killerwhale....
Yes I managed to get some 210 and 220 main air jets from Japan to fit the FCR's but I don't need them now with the ram air style box. It's actually leaning out slightly now over 7500 but only to 13.2 from mid 12's Mathias and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm making 3 more HP up top when riding over 200kph than it shows on the dyno...
I don't want to go down in the main air jet (190-180)as the main air feed feeds the emulsion tubes helps with the homogenisation of fuel in the emulsion tube and less air here doesn't help that process..less air means larger molecules of fuel attached to the air molecules.

Once I sort the ACC pump, I'll look at a larger main jet and lower needle position and see if this flattens things out. Good thing being I don't need dyno time to look at this using the O2 sensor... 8) 8)

Rod popped around today and has set up his O2 sensor on his xt600 and is tuning his chook chaser at present. Makes life so much easier and cheaper because you have real time reading under load at any speed. Best $250 I spent and makes tuning a breeze ... It's winter at present so I can easily make any adjustments in jetting in summer.

Price from Yamaha $48
Honda. $54.65



http://www.allthingsmoto.com/forums/f-1 ... 1-a-33841/


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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:51 am

Pulled the ACC pump apart today and the diaphram has 055 printed on it.. Good chance this coding is 5.5mm which is why the 3 second + shot of fuel.
So to determine the best timing I placed different cam shims to check timing and got myself to just over 8mm with about 1 second shot at WOT.
Riding under 3500rpm your only using upto half throttle and plenty of pump fuel flow to deal with the lack of vacuum and extra air when twisting the throttle. Cranking it further to full above 1/2 throttle the shot taper back to between 1 -1.5 seconds and there's enough vacuum as the revs rise to draw the homogeneous air/fuel up the needle.

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Groundhog Day... :lol: :lol:
Now I have to go back to an earlier ignition map I had made up because I had been dialing in more advance on my TPS %% to deal with the richer fuel mix ...
Good chance it will ping it's ring off if I twist the throttle and load the motor under 6000rpm...
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by wreckage » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:54 am

When's your next track-day, Brian? You'd better have a bloody Go-Pro by then. :lol:

Seriously, you can borrow mine if you like.
Wherever you go, there you are.
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:48 am

Yer cool... Do you have a tank mount for the GoPro??? I need to video the taco , O2 gauge and throttle together to document the air fuel readings . I can then corilate A/F ratio to the RPM and the markings I have on the throttle that show % of throttle being used.

I just tried 2 shims totalling 4.5mm and found when I rolled the throttle from 1/2 at 3,000rpm ( a/f 12.8 ) in 2nd to full throttle by 4500rpm the bike ran lean at 5500 to 6000rpm and just touched 16 A/F, stalled for a split second as it searched for more fuel then took off like a rocket again.

So this has set my boundaries as such 5.5 ( no shim) being too rich and 10 being too lean on ACC pump spacing.
So I've just placed 1 X 2.45mm shim in place which gives me a mid point 8mm.
I have to be mindful that the more shims Inplace also takes volume away inside the pump bowl too.

I tried the o ring mod on the ACC pump and found throttle response suffered under 3000rpm and would drop down to low 11's and flood for a second. The O ring mod gives more volume of fuel instantaneously when you twist the throttle . So a bit of a trade off in loose a little initial throttle response which leaves a little less fuel in the bowl and made slight gains in A/F at 5500rpm.

So fingers xxx I can find that happy medium with just the 1 X 2.45mm shim in place, keep my initial response and A/F at 12.5 -13 through the rev range...

A little more research ...
I put fcr pump diaphram into my search on eBay and just like it's mentioned in the link above, the KTM's run exactly the same 055 diaphram. There was other's listed to for various Yamahas 7.5mm and Hondas 9mm and you could clearly see the difference in height on the centre rivet/post.

But why buy a new diaphram when a shim does exactly the same thing. It can not go anywhere because it's contained in amoungst the compressed Spring ... But remember you have to factor in a little less overall capacity in the pump bowl like a larger leak jet would do.
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:56 am

Wiped the dust off the bike and took it out again today to check the A/F readings with 1 x2.6mm shim Inplace. All compliant till 1 reach around the 5500rpm mark and fueling will drop to to 10.9-11.2 for a second then back into the 12's by 6000rpm in 4th and steadily climbs to low - mid 13's by 8500rpm.
I'm already at full throttle by 4500rpm , and fueling is all good in the 1/4-3/4 throttle so needle position is not the problem. ( reads around mid13's to 14 )
The little less volume and duration on the ACC pump has made no change to the hole at 5500rpm so I can eliminate this as the cause of the problem..

Changing the needle to a different taper /height or root diameter may not help because the needle influence section 1/4-3/4 throttle is running ok.

So maybe cam timing is the next thing to look into..
Maybe I'm just getting too much velocity and I need to close the exhaust valve a little earlier with current overlap...2.3mm inlet and 3.2mm exhaust at TDC .
With the asymmetric cams there is a faster ramp opening and slower ramp closing..
At my 2.3mm inlet the flow results show not far from full potential flow and the exhaust at 3.2mm shows full potential flow so maybe there's excess mixture being lost out the exhaust.

Like a dog with a bone, I'm gunna sort this...
A little more research on the subject and see if I'm barking up the right tree.

So I've just Left a msg to the guys in Germany who makes the cams to check that the original email he sent me is correct with valve lift of 2.3mm inlet and 3.2mm exhaust at TDC.
The cams where new when purchased but arrived with no spec sheet or information hence the original email on recommended cam timing.
If these are meant to be the other way around it would seem to make more sense and something that alway was in the back of my mind when I timed the cams....
I know I have to P/V clearance to do this if They are the wrong way around.

Too many things just aren't adding up.
With the kent cams I had 105hp at 8500 and it held this to 9200rpm but now the peak is 8500rpm and it starts to drop and I loose 10hp by 9200rpm....
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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by dandywarhol » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:25 pm

Makes you realise how much time is put into production engines by the Factory to get a reasonable compromise before launching it on the public - even then they don't always get it right :|
1996 TRX 850, blue, Ohlins 46HRCLS, Race Tech Gold Valves, 0.90 springs, Venom pipes, R6 brakes............
1974 Yamaha RD250A, Candy Blue
1998 Yamaha SZR660, blue of course
1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, Blue and white

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Re: What did you do today? Cobba's rebuild

Post by cobbadiggabuddyblooo » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:51 am

Yes, your not wrong there Dandy...
It's definately fuel related so I'm going to try a slightly different approach and go down in main jets by from 162.5 to a 157.5.
Took the bike for a ride this morning with the smaller main jets and A/F is reading low-mid 13's and just touches 14 for split second every now n then to just see out of interest with the dyno day tomorrow just how much this will influence overall power and how much this effects the dip in the torque curve.
Runs slightly lean on over run but I can address this with the air screw..
I also changed the shim in the pump down to a 1.65 and shows a steady mid 13's on acceleration .
I can probably loose the shim all together if the smaller main jet solves most of the problem.

Answer from Ulf was the cam timing points are correct but suggested moving the exhaust cam to from 3.2 mm to 2.6mm to address the top end .
I'll leave the inlet as such as you can see from the info below why...
Intake closing is the most important cycle to influence the power dynamics of your motor.

So now I have to question.." If I shift the exhaust opening so I have less lift at TDC , this will lessen the overlap, but doesn't more overlap mean better top end power ???"

After a little more research the answer is NO. :)

By opening the exhaust valve a little earlier , a higher compression has a faster burn rate for 1 so most of the power has been utilised in the first 90* after TDC plus
It increases emptying gases on the blow down cycle to BDC which aids in pumping loss pushing exhaust gases out from BDC to TDC which helps top end power.!!!!!!!

Looking at the INLET CLOSING * of all the longer duration cams, they are all within a couple of degrees of each other .... Inlet closing is the most influential timing event....

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