direct access. it needs to be changed. (edit)

[idl1975]

i did the DAS, i rode a GS500 for 6months to gain some experience before moving onto the TDM
sure a bit more experience would be nice, but its down to self preservation & common sense
lets be honest, how many people can even ride a 33bhp bike to its limits on the road....not as many as think they could thats for sure....
you can kill yourself just as easily on a 500 as you can a 1000cc

Agreed, a desrestricted RS125 is nearly as dangerous for the inexperienced as an R1. Even more reason to have better training...

[gregs656]

But I don't think it's actually the case that it's lots of new bikers that die every year.

Unfortunately it is. Jak is right, the BABs are the highest risk group, because they learnt first time round when even the largest capacity bikes would be walked all over by todays small capacity bikes, and there was far less traffic on the road.

Statistically you're most likely to have an accident in your first 6 months. I did. The DAS as it stands is not good enough, but what is. Nothing can prepare you for the road except getting out there and doing it, whilst knowing your limits. Unfortunately, in the UKs (unfortunately) sports bike biased culture, people learn the hard way.

[Omegaman]

congrats on passing

my wife fell off her bike 20 mins before her test as i was already out doing mine.
yet she passed her test with less minors than me and i never been able to live it down yet.

she still trying to find the reverse gear now though ha ha ha

[burty]

But I don't think it's actually the case that it's lots of new bikers that die every year.

Unfortunately it is. Jak is right, the BABs are the highest risk group, because they learnt first time round when even the largest capacity bikes would be walked all over by todays small capacity bikes, and there was far less traffic on the road.

Statistically you're most likely to have an accident in your first 6 months. I did. The DAS as it stands is not good enough, but what is. Nothing can prepare you for the road except getting out there and doing it, whilst knowing your limits. Unfortunately, in the UKs (unfortunately) sports bike biased culture, people learn the hard way.

If it's BABs that are the highest risk group then surely it's not inexperienced or new riders that are. That was my point anyway.

Unless you count BABs as inexperienced, which you may well do. But the problem is simply how you measure experience, and how you stop inexperienced riders crashing, because ultimately experience comes with practice and at some point that practice has to be on the road.

[biker_jay]

I completely understand what you mean about being able to get any bike straigt away but if money was no option couldnt you get any car straight away? Or at least a seriously quick one. Its a bit of a dodgy one really, would you rather pay more than the ammount it costs now for DAS so you was a little more confident at riding a fast bike fast, fast being above the speed limit, How much extra skill is needed to ride within the limit. Granted if countersteering, for example, was taught breifly then more people might be able to get their bike around a tight corner that is within the speed limit.
I think the biggest concern is people riding a fast bike very fast because the bike can do it but the rider cant. Is the government going to introduce a test to see if people can handle a bike at high speed, exceeding the speed limit, i dont think so as it is illegal to do it in the first place.

I'm sure i'm going to get slated for some of that now.............

[Jak]

I completely understand what you mean about being able to get any bike straigt away but if money was no option couldnt you get any car straight away? Or at least a seriously quick one.

Got two friends who went out and did just that ... one bought a chavved up Honda Integra, the other bought a Skyline. Both cars were written off within 2 months. One of the guys was talking about going and doing DAS ... fortunately he didn't.

As for born again bikers ... I think they possibly count as inexperienced, like someone already said... bikes back then are sooooo different to what you can buy now.

[Tarwetijger]

I remember well when I passed the test: my father congratulated me and added: "now you can really learn how to drive a motorbike".
I was like: WHAT?! but several years later I realised he couldn't be more right, of course. Due to a tidy budget I started on small bikes, which was a good thing to be honest. In the meantime I did several advanced riding courses (including on the track) and I read everything I can in books and magazines about riding techniques (I see it is very interesting stuff). My father doesn't even try to keep up with me anymore (but that's also because he (and his bike btw - XJ900F) is getting old...) .

Congrats Brockzila, take your time to really learn how to drive!

[madivi]

How are you going to know what you need to know to exercise common sense, unless someone teaches it to you? Riding a fast motorcycle is something that has to be explained, learned and practiced, and new riders need to understand what the issues are before they can apply common sense to them. They are taught to a standard of bare competence in doing the easy things (30mph trundling in a straight line), with no or almost no exposure to or awareness of the hard things. And "learning by doing" doesn't necessarily work if one mistake means you end up under a lorry.

And as we licence and regulate riders and drivers and (in most countries) don't provide comprehensive public transport solutions (where we can choose to travel by a means where the responsibilty for competence is on the system or the operator and its employees, not "us"), we should probably be making sure people are competent to control their vehicles, if only to protect other road users and members of the public. If I have to commute every day with a bunch of t**** in cars, I want them to be VERY well trained in not killing me, not relied on to exercise common sense.

I got my first licence in Singapore - very comprehensive multi-stage assessment program just for 125s, with seperate, stepped licencing for 250s and 400s+. When I lived in the US, I had to re-test, and the practical test in Massachusetts was...doing three figure-eights in a car park. I s*** you not. So there ARE things stupider than the DAS syllabus. In case you're wondering, the theory test contained questions like "why should you wear a helmet" - choose from 4 multiple choice answers.

Personally, I think far, far more time needs to be spent on low speed and low traction control, and a decent amount of time on basic performance riding principles. The emphasis now is on getting people wobbling around a few cones (and suchlike) so that, as Brock says, you can get them wobbling around town ASAP and ready to pass the test. But your low-speed control is really a foundational skill for controlling the bike and not just being a passenger, because it teaches you how to use your entire body to control the bike, and how to seperate what your body is doing from what the bike's doing. Not enough time is spent on teaching people to control the bike, and you're then not equipped to deal with a bike that's come slightly unstuck or a situation where new riders overcook a corner and don't dare lean the bike over. Probably more obvious is the lack of theoretical and practical training in analysing and tackling corners properly, which of course you can do with a big enough carpark/paddock (doesn't have to be done at 110mph, after all).

Seen your exhaustive answer I agree, there's more to it than just a generic sense of responsibility. Most obviously there are limits to be aware of and consider correctly. That's hard an needs learning.
I also had to learn it the hard way. I cooked up a corner exactly how you described it. Though the true reason was excessive speed.

Most often there's not room enough to lean over propperly witout risking your head or get your wheels in roadside muck.
Good handling abilities can also entice you to agressive riding. So what's best?
Shall we admit that motorbikers like to race and hence train them accordingly?
Or shall we leave them alone with their bad cornering abilities and conservative riding habits?
For my part it seems it has been the latter.

[idl1975]

Seen your exhaustive answer I agree, there's more to it than just a generic sense of responsibility. Most obviously there are limits to be aware of and consider correctly. That's hard an needs learning.
I also had to learn it the hard way. I cooked up a corner exactly how you described it. Though the true reason was excessive speed.

Most often there's not room enough to lean over propperly witout risking your head or get your wheels in roadside muck.
Good handling abilities can also entice you to agressive riding. So what's best?
Shall we admit that motorbikers like to race and hence train them accordingly?
Or shall we leave them alone with their bad cornering abilities and conservative riding habits?
For my part it seems it has been the latter.

Exhausting answer, you mean

On the riding skills leading to riding harder I do think doing lots of trackdays has made me a lot less patient - which is not to say more aggressive in the sense of pissed off. And I do think that less patient is less safe. You end up treating corners as problems to be analysed and then ridden at the correct speed, which is not necessarily the speed that accounts for some twinnock parking in the middle of the road, or Farmer Giles and his tractor quite reasonably trundling along the lanes at 15mph, or even the blithering incompetence of the person in front of you. Similarly, you start to assume that slower trafffic and a wide-open passing window means you should pass, which is fine, but probably doesn't do the image of biking much good.

I do think if they did a lot more work on low speed control and basic bike handling in training, it would do a lot to help typical DAS test takers feel more comfortable on their bikes and ride safely. These days at least, DAS licensees typically have lots of car experience and don't need help learning the basic traffic rules.